E002: Navigating the Migration Maze: Legacy to Modern Solutions

Sven Al Hamad (00:00)

Hi everyone. Welcome to another episode of Enterprise Engineering, a podcast by Webiny. Webiny is a commercial open source platform for enterprises to help them manage their content at large scales. Today, we're to be talking about

experience of migrating from Legacy DXP to more modern solutions. And as my guest I have Emre from Retter. Emre, could you introduce yourself, a few words about yourself and Retter and then we'll dive into our main topic.

Emre Oget (00:28)

Sure, sure. Thank you. Thanks for having me, Sven. Well, I'm working as the partner and the chief commercial officer at Retter. I've been with the company for the last five, five and a half years now. Well, we are based in Istanbul and Dubai. So what we do mostly is we're working with enterprise customers across food and beverage, retail and media.

with applications towards mostly e-commerce, quick commerce, loyalty applications, and media business applications. So that's pretty much what we do in a nutshell. We work with top-notch brands like Starbucks, Emirates, Pret A Manger, Costa Coffee, and some other regional media brands as well.

Sven Al Hamad (01:13)

Awesome, awesome. Those are some nice logos And I can imagine that you did a fair bit of that migration from, let's say, more type of a legacy solution or legacy DXP, CMS, or some sort of a homebrew solution into more modern approaches. And then could you maybe speak a bit more about

What are some of the main driving forces? Why are customers moving away from those legacy solutions? Is it cost? Is it performance? Is it security? Is it maintainability of those products? What would you identify and say are the top three reasons?

Emre Oget (01:48)

Yeah, I think like this answer has two chapters. So chapter one is from the engineering side, from our side. And I think that's a good story that how we met each other with Webiny because that was a quite organic partnership. So I think like, I think it was two, two and a half years ago and the customers, some of the customers, know, this like the first adapters in this curve.

So some of them start the more visionary ones. They started asking us in the RFP tender process at the sales cycle. They start asking us guys, are you gonna, you're not gonna build the CMS from scratch, right? So that was the first, because before that we always got to have the answer. So we want our custom CMS, our CMS has to be very boutique, et cetera. So.

doing everything from scratch was very illogical for us. And CMS was a chapter where our engineers didn't want to dive in at all. So everybody was trying to get rid of that. So that's how we actually run into each other from a developer block, a developer, a senior developer in our team referred, let's try Webiny in this project. And then that was the first time.

Of course, like from the decision maker perspective, let me try to walk in their shoes. And all, like you said, all of the customers, all of the logos we gain, we are never their first try. We are always their second, third, or even sometimes fourth attempt. And we always do that legacy migration from legacy or a black box vendor. So I mean,

They come to us, these enterprises generally come to us with a frustration about speed, cost, lack of flexibility. And when it is like a legacy platform, of course, I'm not going to throw out names, but when it's a legacy platform in our domain, so loyalty, e-commerce, media streaming, it's generally that like they cannot build anything. They don't have any mandate on the product roadmap.

So that's the general problem. And the second thing is when it's a black box render, even it is more, let's say modern or newer, newer, the technology, they cannot have mandate on the functionality because the business teams want agility, they need higher performance and speed. IT teams need speed in terms of technicality, et cetera. So this is like the key...

the items that I can count at a quick breath.

Sven Al Hamad (04:16)

Awesome. And you mentioned one particular thing here.

which is a black box vendor, even if it's a more modern. What would you say out of your experience so far, what is harder? Is it harder to move from a legacy solution, even be it an open source legacy solution to a more modern solution, or is it harder to migrate from a black box solution into an alternative, right? Which one of those two you had more friction?

what.

Emre Oget (04:48)

Yeah, like technically I think it's pretty much the same. It's pretty much the same. Of course, like when it is a black box solution, I think it's a little bit easier because there is already a kind of like, let's say API based microsolution hierarchy and APIs integrated with the ERP kind of like legacy solutions that has to be there anyways.

regardless of what kind of digital platform they are using. So any e-commerce platform or any loyalty platform would have to be integrated with the cashier system or with the ERP solution. But when it is legacy platform, they are generally like built-in solutions. So like the big boys, let's say, okay, big guys at the vendor stake, they sell everything in one. So then it is generally harder to, let's say, articulate that.

But I think it's generally a mindset thing. if the organization at the customer side, at the enterprise side, if they have the, let's say, determination and the teams that are ready to do this, then they do it anyways, regardless of it is in-house, vendor-based, Black Box, legacy vendor, it doesn't matter.

Sven Al Hamad (05:43)

Okay.

All right, all right, I see. So another thing you mentioned there is that it can be very hard when you have a vendor or a solution that is, let's say,

very monolithic in a way that's not composable. So you, I assume like those migrations are also much more tougher because you can't take just one small portion of it and move it away because everything is so deeply interconnected. It's hard to kind of do it in, let's say in stages and things like that. So would that be kind of something that you faced or you have had to kind of run through and had some challenges with dealing?

having those big, big monolithic solutions and then moving them into, let's say, not just one solution as an alternative, but maybe even a dozen different solutions.

Emre Oget (06:51)

Yeah, I think again, like there are, I think maybe two aspects to this. So the more like this is like the organizational challenges because again, I think it's a matter of mindset because MVPing or let's say making something like a small chunk out of a big project and then moving along step by step is I think a mindset and the culture. And I mean, I don't want to be sounding very criticizing, but generally the enterprises don't have that mindset.

at least in our part of the world, Turkey, GCC, et cetera. I mean, it's coming there, it's coming there, but I think we still have time because generally like they have enterprises look at the calls like this. Okay, they built something with a provider or internally or with a black box solution, let's say in 10 years, okay, they built this in 10 years, they built something huge. And then...

What generally they want to do is, okay guys, can you do the migration as is in six months? But again, like then that's not the same thing. That's not like Apple to Apple comparison because it's impossible to do that in most of the cases. So you need a how to say, a leader or a shepherd and a customer side who talks that sense into the organization. I think this is very, very crucial.

Sven Al Hamad (08:06)

And that and.

You mentioned those organizational challenges a few times. So what are those? Is this just that mindset shift that you need to somehow embed into the customer to explain to them, hey, you're going to do 10 years into six months. It doesn't work like that. We have to take, I don't know, several milestones, several smaller steps until the whole thing is migrated. What are some of the other challenges with

with regards to the organization, are there challenges with, I don't know, fear of data loss, fear of corrupt data during migration? Are there any other types of concerns that come to mind or types of concerns that you saw within your experience?

Emre Oget (08:49)

Yeah, again, like regionally, like there are of course, like issues like about the data ownership about like working even with cloud vendors, et cetera. Like, for example, in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia in Saudi, like they have this data protection as like one of the key priorities. So they want to keep the data within the kingdom, but it's a very big nation. So.

Like AWS doesn't have a region there yet. Azure doesn't have a region there yet. So all the fingers point to the GCP solution, et cetera. That can be one of the problems. And the other problem is generally the ITs in big enterprises, like big, enterprises, where there are info security teams, like complex IT teams, of course, they kind of challenge modern, new,

startup kind of solutions a lot because like they they're comfortable with working they're comfortable with as is like I mean like their salaries don't change okay so I think that's one of the key things and the second thing is to wrap up the previous question I think it's a good example like the construction industry for complaining with IT our business like they want to do that

10 years experience in six months, they want to skew some things or in a year even. But again, like if you want to, let's say, POC or MVP construction, you got to do the infrastructure anyways. You got to do the entire thing anyways. So that's sometimes pretty much what we face. And generally the marketing teams and the, not IT teams, but marketing teams, business teams, commercial teams.

They never want to give up on the quantity of the features. They want to have the entire thing because they fear loss of revenue. And I think they're right in a way with that concern. And also, think another thing for for revenue and Retter that this kind of domains where we both address the CTO and the CMO starting from the pandemic.

We at Retter strongly believe that there was a strong clash between those two titles. the kind of shadow CTOs popped up like mushrooms. like CMOs, they started to take decisions because the upper management or the boards were expecting things that are very agile and speedy way.

And I think most of the infrastructures, especially in retail, grocery, those kind of areas, they kind of start to fall apart because the IT lost control of the entire architecture and stuff. I think that's also another thing. Now with the new projects that we are trying to onboard or when we talk with a customer at the sales cycle, we always see this kind of, let's say damages or damage would be good.

damages at the customer architecture. they have so much vendor inflation, I would say. There are so many marketing tools, martech tools integrated, then the migration process itself becomes a huge chunk. Yeah. So.

Sven Al Hamad (12:07)

There's two things there that you said. I know from our conversations, previously we would either speak to a technical person or a marketing person while evaluating our solution, but more and more we see one of those people driving the process.

but the other party also being very, very engaged, right? So if the IT is driving the decision process, they do make sure the marketing team gets to meet us, talk to us, gets their own demo, gets the time to ask their own questions, runs their own PoCs and stuff like that. Which I think to be honest is the right way because, hey, well, this one part of your organization is gonna manage the solution, scale the solution and secure the solution. While this other department is gonna be using

the solution to create content and eventually bring more revenue to the company. So you do need to keep both of them, both of them involved. But also going to one other previous point that you mentioned, which is that the IT guys tend to like their salaries don't, don't grow, go up or down depending on the solution way, which they choose. Right.

want less work and stuff like that. And this is kind of like one of the mindset we often see is, hey, nobody got fired from picking an IBM, right? IBM is considered, let's say, a legacy in this sentence. So, but it's proven, it works, right? It's not the most modern, it's not the most agile, it's not the most scalable. It's just proven and it's secure, it's established in the market. And that's what I think like, this is more of a bit of a legacy outdated mindset approach that was

on the market for many, many years. But I think lately, because the innovation is so quick and there's so much new stuff happening every year, picking IBM has an even greater delta between what modern and legacy means and that gap is widening exponentially that people are now more aiming towards, I might want to kind of take the risk here and pick a startup.

because this is kind of how we manage to open some doors, even with large enterprises is we try to convince them, hey, you're gonna be losing a lot on all of this innovation. Sure, you might be safe, but you don't need to do a big bank. You can start with a POC, you can start with a smaller project. Let's...

prove that this smaller startup has the capabilities that you need as an organization on a smaller project and then grow up from there. And those type of approaches, I think, are what we see working more and more with regards to winning customers, especially in the enterprise space, because that is, I think, the space where it's really the hardest to position a startup or, let's say, a new upcoming solution to the market.

When it comes to picking, we talked about those challenges on what legacy means, what are the challenges both on the technical side, on the mindset side, and also what are some of those requirements or the needs that are driving the migration. But then if you look at the other end of that spectrum is...

What is that model alternative? So how do you go about choosing which model alternative you want to go for? What are some of the criteria that you feel like are the most important from you as, let's say, a partner implementing this solution or migrating? But also what are those things that a, like in this case, a client, an enterprise client looks for? what, because they are putting trust in you and your organization to make the best choice. But

to reframe that question is like, are they influencing that choice? And what are you as an industry expert looking for when you are evaluating those solutions? I know you mentioned the story how you picked, how one of your senior engineers found and picked Webiny and now you're running a dozen or more projects on Webiny, but it started with a very small one. But what are those criteria that you go about when you want to pick a more modern alternative to a large enterprise solution?

Emre Oget (16:05)

Yeah, I mean, from again, from Retter perspective, when we select a partner or a solution that we want to work with, technically, we generally keep that decision on a very, technical level because Retter , mean, like we are like a software house, but we have our own products and our Northstar KPI is always to accelerate development time. So every...

partner or solution that we use in our tech stacks must be helping that purpose. That's the number one thing. And we generally split those partnerships under two. One are the things like vendors or the partner solutions that we use at the back scene, like our enterprise customers wouldn't know. It's for our own good to improve the

let's say agility, etc. or the quality. Of course, customers are affected by it, but they don't see it. So this is a very technical decision. as the commercial or the operational leader, I don't get involved even in that process. And the second thing is the solutions and partners that our customers see that they procure from us one solution on an end-to-end basis.

and they say, okay, guys, you can bring on other partners. And I think Webiny definitely falls in that section. for the second part, again, the decision is mostly technical, because our KPI is always the same. So we have one common goal to decrease the development time to accelerate it. But then again, then for customer facing things, we need to have

that, okay, like, is it a startup or is it a company that I can easily present to my enterprise customer? Would they think that there's lack of professionality, et cetera, et cetera? So I think these are the major concerns from business side. And from the enterprise perspective, again, I think like the key thing here is the agility and time to market. Because generally, all of our customers that I sold

in my tenure at Retter , they are frustrated with the, let's say, slow delivery timelines that they receive from black box vendors or legacy vendors. Because when it's a black box vendor, it's generally one code base serving sometimes thousands of customers or hundreds of customers. And let's say the goal of the companies that we work with, the enterprises, generally they don't fall under the same

goals with the vendor, with the black box vendor. Because generally, like for example, take coffee industry, for example, we work with Pret A Manger,  we work with Starbucks in Turkey, Kazakhstan, work with Costa Coffee in the UAE. So all of them, again, they have a migration story. And the vendors that they migrated from, they generally serve like very small restaurant chains, like five, 10 branches, but

Starbucks here in Turkey, they have 750 stores, so they cannot have the same digital roadmap. So they need faster features, need faster functionality, they need third party integrations that they will only use, this doesn't, let's say, this doesn't match with the priorities of that company because they need to increase their traction, etc. They are also better, right? And when it's a...

Black Box, not of Black Box, but the legacy provider. Okay, like IBM categorization. So they are the victims in this podcast. So for IBM categorization kind of vendors, I think it is like they have generally the main brand and then there is a system integrator involved, a local partner, let's say, right? Again, like now you have to understand if the partner is correct, if they have the relevant experience.

etc. then they would get, they generally need support from somewhere outside the operating country. So these are all the elements that lead to the frustration and lead to the decision to change the solution when they're. So the total cost of ownership, again, after time to market and agility, TCO total cost of ownership is definitely important thing. Business continuity, I think is very, very important, very important because

Then again, like, okay, the migration is done, but what next? Okay, so generally, like when we are finished with the migration, then the business teams, are like waiting, like racehorses. And then when the migration is done and we are live, they start shooting the features that they have been waiting, that they're waiting for maybe one, two, three year already. ability to respond to that.

let's say, feature sets request is also very, very crucial. And then, of course, I have to count the technical part, but that's like hygiene factor. So that's why I'm telling it last. But like API first, microservice, headless, these are again very important because then they need to understand that they need to, let's say, divide and conquer. So they are...

tired of monolithic solutions. that cannot be a discussion anymore.

Sven Al Hamad (21:23)

Yeah,

so in a way, there's also a kind of a backwards approach here, which is a customer needs to do a specific thing. They need a specific product. Then you're looking for which product on the market gets you there the fastest, right? And the thing is that most of the projects within the enterprise space,

don't always fall within the, let's say, an out of the box SaaS solution because you can't customize it, as you mentioned. So you're looking for, what's the best product on the market that I can customize, integrate, and in some cases, white label so that the customer doesn't even know what's going on under the hood. As long as you meet their key objectives, which is time to market, right? It's the cost, it's that velocity at which they will be able to utilize

the

new solution and earn more money, be better at their processes, more efficient, what not. But of course, enduring that through that process, as you said, there is that technical aspect and that technical aspect, I assume has multiple layers, one being customizable, but the other one being pretty much like what features it has out of the box, how much does it cost as well and things like that.

Which totally makes sense because at the end of the day, any business decision, any decision that a business is making, it's making to either cut cost or increase revenue, right? It always ties into that. And those are, I think what we saw always, these are the main initiatives that are the driving forces behind certain projects. Because there's no other reason.

business has its purpose. And so it's to kind of make money either for the the shareholders or for the owner or whatnot. Awesome. And when it comes to like looking back, right, since you did a lot of these migrations, what are some of the let's say lessons learned? What are some of the key steps that you say, hey, never ever miss this step? It is

so important, right? What would be some of those steps or those learnings?

Emre Oget (23:28)

I mean like again like from the vendor perspective trying to sell to enterprise level customers I'm going to answer that question so so one I think I always regret asking few questions

I that's very important because the more you ask, let's say, when you receive, when you start to receive, I mean, of course, this is not like a sales advisory podcast, I mean, if they are not giving answers, either they don't know what they are doing or they don't know what they want or you are just like the, I mean, the procurement alternative to already made decision, right?

formality. So I think asking questions is very important because when you start asking good questions and then you start understanding who is who, who does what and you can also start determining what are the, let's say, what are going to be the pitfalls, what are going to be the biggest challenges and I think it is also very important to determine the early wins.

Okay, so you generally talk with people who are, who have like a lot of experience there. And when you go more west, let's say to Europe and USA, I mean, the tenors of the employees start increasing in most of the cases. So they're very, very experienced with what they do. And sometimes it's like a reflex. So they don't even consider sharing everything in...

to your questions because they, it's a hygiene factor, it's already there, et cetera. So I think understanding those challenges and determining the, let's say, the best MVP, the best phase one, determining the early wins is very important. So just like you said, okay, to sum up everything, why people do change their infrastructure. Are they crazy? Their salary is not going to change.

because they need to decrease cost, they need to increase revenue, etc. or profitability, right? So you have to define those first 30, 60, 100 days gains when you make the implementation. So I think that's very, very, very important. coming back to our experience in 80 % of the migrations we did, when we make an apple to apple comparison,

In day two of the new platform with us, we always had the same or bigger revenue when we make that like for like comparison. And understanding the organization structure who has the most influence, who has the decision-making capabilities, who are the people that are going to actually help you, I think.

These are the things I wish I had known better or more.

Sven Al Hamad (26:21)

So it's finally listening to your answer because it's all about human relationships that you've kind of mentioned. There's not a lot of technical stuff there, right? So the lessons learned are more on that human side to manage expectations to gather, I would assume, the right reasons why you're running this migration, the right reasons for...

or measurements of success, how you're going to prove that this is a successful migration. So it's everything around the technology, right? Technology is just the vehicle for executing this project. The project is not about technology, neither it should be. It is about business needs and business needs come from people. They don't come from tools or applications or technology, right?

Emre Oget (27:10)

Exactly. Exactly.

Sven Al Hamad (27:13)

We've faced quite a lot of similar cases where it's all about asking the right questions. And as you mentioned, it's not a sales podcast, but even from the architectural standpoint of like when somebody says, hey, we have this project, right? And you're trying to nail down if your solution fits the project requirements.

Yes, there's the technical aspect of that, but there is the business aspect that you need to nail down. You need to get those requirements right. And when somebody asks a question, can your product do this? This is the wrong question.

We always counter ask that question as in what do you as a business want to do or achieve? All right, let's talk about that. Not can my product do this? This is not the right question in like 99 % of the cases, right? Just rephrasing that, what do you as a business want to achieve? It's gonna open so much more in your product, helping them achieve it in the most optimal and efficient and cost-effective way.

Emre Oget (28:18)

Exactly, exactly. I mean, like people are not very used to the term composable, modular, and I think it is being misinterpreted. So, because even like monolithic architecture say, okay, we are composable. so I mean, like having something, let's say parametric is something else, having something composable, but really like literally composable is something else. But I think

That's a discussion that we will always lose as a vendor at the discussion table because it's a too technical issue and generally it's all about business.

Sven Al Hamad (28:54)

And what would you say?

What are the main outcomes or success stories from some of your migrations? you winning? Like were your customers most happy with regards when they did the migration? Like what were those main wins for them? Was it cost? Was it agility? Was it business continuity or something else? What would you say like, yes, I as a business or an enterprise have this pain. I want to go through this migration. I know why.

I'm migrating, I know how to pick my solution, I know the steps of migration, but when I'm on the other side, when the migration is done, what do you see from your customers as the biggest wins that they can then say, yes, this migration was fully justified because of this metric or that metric or this experience?

Emre Oget (29:46)

Yeah, I think I...

From business perspective, like from CEO or Chief Commercial Officer perspective, the first thing is loss of revenue because that's generally what the upper management fears. So when we make a migration, because of probably the bad experiences they have, they mostly fear that we are going to lose revenue and customers. if you can, I mean, in our experience for loyalty platforms where the

Major business KPI is the loyalty revenue percentage over the total revenue or the loyalty checks with loyalty transactions over the total checks percentage are the main KPIs. So having that percentage at the same or upper level in the first one month, two months, three months is a very key metric. And e-commerce, the number of transactions is a key metric. But again, like

This is a KPI that you need to determine in the migration process. From the, again, from the agility perspective, after the migration, people generally, like companies generally need a one month or two months, let's say, cool off period where they need the stabilization, et cetera, because it's not a pinky pinky world, of course, but after the third month, I think, the agility to launch new features.

Agility to launch new features without bugs with, let's say, CI, CDs, et cetera. I think that's also very important. Like seamless deployment version upgrades, this is very important. Decreasing the time in DevOps, like infra level. This is something we experienced from Starbucks. Like they used to send like push notifications in...

100,000, 100,000 kind of batches to over 2 million customers five years ago. Now they can send as a bulk. Nobody monitors the traffic. Nobody monitors if the application is going to respond, cetera. So that investment, that money is going to either cost cutting or to building new features faster and more. And the other thing I would say is

the decrease in the cloud cost. Since Composable and Serverless come together, there is a good possibility if you don't do things wrong, then the cloud cost will go down because in retail, okay, you, for let's say for a shop in the mall, right, you pay the rent for 30 days. You don't pay for the open hours from...

let's say 10 a.m. to 7 p.m. but you pay for the entire 30 days 24-7 but it doesn't have to be like that in the e-commerce but if you use a serverless architecture then you just pay for what you use so when we migrated Turkey's biggest e-quick commerce provider not quick commerce but I would say like low-cost heart discount or grocery chain

that e-commerce and delivery system to us. The CTO called us at the end of the first week in live. They said, okay, guys, I checked the AWS account. The amount of the bill is very, very low. There must be a problem. Can you guys please check? And we checked in like 10, 15 minutes and we told him, okay, this is the normal version because he is not very used to So he told us like, okay, you know what? Please keep an eye on it.

Sven Al Hamad (33:03)

number.

Emre Oget (33:10)

send me report at the first month. So their cost decreased by 75%. So that's, yeah. Exactly, exactly. Because they only pay for what they use and they have the greatest speed and agility. So if like, our mindset is like, if AWS, GCP, those kind of like big companies, if they work on that infrastructure level, so we treat their...

Sven Al Hamad (33:16)

And it's because of moving to serverless.

Emre Oget (33:38)

managed services like a supercomputer. So then our entire development team focuses on creating the value. So that's like a key thing for us, how we generate that value because it's also reflecting in our prices so that the cost of ownership also goes down.

Sven Al Hamad (33:46)

Yeah.

So it's a very good summary, right? So there's a lot of business wins essentially on the back of a successful migration, right? Cost, increased revenue, reliability, as you mentioned. And these type of stories just help

management to push for more more migrations I think. Because once you do a successful project of such a migration and you cut the cost for the largest e-commerce in Turkey by 70%, just imagine the amount of savings that's behind that. It's going to be super easy to then go and justify even more migration projects down the line.

Emre Oget (34:37)

Exactly. And also like a qualitative thing, I think, is the quality and let's say the positiveness of the relationship between the, let's say, CCO, CMO and the CIO, CTO level. So if that relationship is going good after the migration, then I think I would say it's a good job, good done.

Sven Al Hamad (34:57)

Yeah, true, Nice, nice. Awesome.

And it's like also, this also speaks on the technical level about serverless because like in e-commerce, it's all about saving milliseconds, making the website faster and faster and faster. Like every one second added to the load time, I don't know, decreases your chances of successful conversion by 5 % or stuff like that. And serverless...

Previously was kind of like go serverless is slow or cold start issues stuff like that's no longer the truth truth, right? Serverless is fast serverless is responsive and like through your story serverless is powering such a large e-commerce really says a lot

Emre Oget (35:40)

Yeah, mean, Cold Start is like when in the brick and mortar world, say you are the first customer to enter to a Starbucks store, right? Or to a fashion apparel store. So the guy, the seller guy in the store just got his first sip of coffee. Maybe she or he didn't even take the first sip. So the answers can be slow, et cetera. But Cold Start even today is not working like that. So...

So yeah, there is that kind of, let's say, resistance, I would say, but I think like modernizing this digital experience platforms and digital experience platform, of course, is a very wide and broad expression. can be CMS, can be order management system, entire e-commerce system. But now like legacy platforms and black box solutions. So some companies do more than 50%.

like brick and mortar and online both. When they do hybrid business, sometimes like the online world is 50-51 % the majority now. So, and it's going to be the majority one day soon. it has to be different than what they use with their competitor, right? So that's why I think like this composable solutions where they have a good infrastructure behind and then they build their own needs accordingly is...

going to be a trending thing. And probably we will also have AI accelerating, helping these kind of platforms because probably like development with AI is going to help cloud native solutions, like what we are trying to do in both companies, but they are not going to help monolithic lift and shift cloud solutions because they are not going to...

Sven Al Hamad (37:22)

you

Emre Oget (37:24)

enjoy the privileges of the cloud native managed services. Again, that's of course another discussion level, but I think this is where we let's say, we are steering.

Sven Al Hamad (37:36)

Yeah, unless we have robots powered by AI in physical stores. But it's also a potential future, you know?

Emre Oget (37:40)

⁓ yeah.

Yeah, I think so. I think so.

Sven Al Hamad (37:45)

Awesome. Emre, thank you so much for your thoughts and for your time to share all of your wonderful experiences with us and our audience. Before we log out, so do you want to maybe say where can people reach you or learn more about Retter in case they have an enterprise project and or a legacy system that they want to modernize?

Emre Oget (38:07)

Yeah, thank you. Thank you for having me, Sven. It was really nice conversation. So it was like, hope people are going to listen, watch like they will, let's see, not maybe learn something new, but they can have something like an aspirational or a positive thing, or they can maybe match what they hear with their experience and feel like, okay, I'm not the only one. So.

People, they can always reach out to me from our website retter.io or from LinkedIn. I'll be always happy to help. And I don't think like that just to wrap up like what we all talk, I think like all to summarize everything, think that modernizing this DXP digital experience platform, it's not like just a platform decision that you choose, but it's like an organizational change and unlock.

So the vendor should be right, but the enterprise or the customer also should be ready for that. And once again.

Sven Al Hamad (39:01)

Yeah, I agree. There's

a lot involved in that, especially on the human side as we discussed. All right, awesome. Well, Emre, thank you once again for your time and to our audience and listeners. Make sure you subscribe to our podcast for many more episodes. We'll put links to Retter and to Emre in case you guys want to connect with him and the company. And yeah, I'll see you on the next one. 

Thank you again. Bye.